GUY KAWASAKI - BECOMING THE BEST

Full transcript of episode with Guy Kawasaki​​​​​

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JONATHAN LØW

Welcome to a new episode of Extraordinary, the global nonprofit podcast sharing stories, ideas, and innovations from extraordinary people. I'm your host, Jonathan Løw, and today's guest is Guy Kawasaki. Guy is the former chief evangelist at Apple.

                         

He's a best-selling author. Currently, he's chief evangelist at Canva, and he's known to be an ordinary surfer, but an extraordinary human being. Welcome to the Extraordinary podcast.

                         

Today is the very first time that we broadcast Extraordinary, and that's why I also wanted to make sure that we have a really extraordinary guest today, and we do. You just heard a short introduction to him. The entrepreneur and best-selling author, podcast producer, and much more, Guy Kawasaki.

 

So, Guy, thanks so much for joining us today.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Oh, of course. The first guest I had on my podcast was Jane Goodall, so I'm no Jane Goodall, but I'll try to be an extraordinary guest for you.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Sounds perfect. And also, to be quite honest, I'm an entrepreneur and I write books, but I'm not like an experienced podcast host, so I'm feeling a bit nervous here, but then I feel in good hands with you because quite a few years ago, you wrote The Art of the Start, and you know what it's like to be an entrepreneur and start projects, so you also know it can be challenging in the beginning. No, not at all.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

The hard part of podcasting is not podcasting itself, the technology. The hard part of podcasting is getting people to listen.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Exactly.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

So, good luck.

 

JONATHAN LØW

How do you get people to listen?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I don't know. I don't have the answer to that question. If I had that answer, I don't know if I would tell you, but I don't have the answers to tell you.

 

JONATHAN LØW

But you know a lot about starting up stuff, and I know that a lot of the people who are going to listen to or watch this podcast are people who are passionate about turning ideas into reality, and you've spoken, you've done it yourself, you've spoken to so many people that are good at this. Can you maybe, to begin with, share what have you learned over the years? Like, what characterizes the people that both start up stuff but also succeed with what they do?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I think the most common characteristics is that they are lucky and they're on the spectrum. They're either ADHD, OCD, whatever, whatever acronyms we can come up with. They are not what you call normal people.

 

Because starting a company is an abnormal activity, so you need abnormal people, quite frankly.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Well, that's actually perfect, at least here in Scandinavia where I'm based. More and more people, we can discuss whether that's a good or a bad thing, but more and more people are actually getting a diagnosis here. And it used to be, you know, a bad thing, and people were a bit embarrassed about it, but luckily it's turning into, you know, well, we are all different.

 

And I've met a lot of entrepreneurs who has, as you say, ADHD or other diagnosis, but they manage to use it for their own benefit and to really create stuff. Well, so here's the diagnosis. So we're going to do a quick diagnosis together.

 

No, so for those who have not followed all your work, you have a podcast named Remarkable, but you also have a book with the same title. That's not where we have gotten ours. We have not stolen it and just rewritten it as extraordinary.

 

But of course I read the book, and you talk about some qualities that you have found out are important. I remember especially two of them that are grit and grace. Can you tell a bit more about those two?

 

Why are they important?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

So the book is called Think Remarkable. The podcast is called Remarkable People. And Remarkable People, the podcast, is now five years old, and we have 250 episodes and 5,000 pages of transcripts.

 

And we figured that nobody's going to listen to all that and read all that. So we made it into a book where we took the best lessons of everybody. And the book is divided into two, excuse me, into three sections.

 

You mentioned two. So the way the book works is growth, grit, and grace, because I think that's roughly the order in which people who are remarkable progress. And that would include entrepreneurs.

 

So, you know, the growth phase means that you try new things. You're not afraid of failure, that, you know, you believe that you can be more than what you currently are. The grit mindset is that you persevere, you work hard, you push through failure.

 

And the grace mindset is that at the end of your career or, you know, when you've achieved success, you realize that it's because other people have helped you. So now you owe it to the society and you owe it to karma to help people because somebody helped you. So that's the three phases.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Do you think it has to be like a linear process? So, of course, I recognize, you know, especially those who are successful in business, earn money, they tend to, when they get older, to want to give back. There are also lots of people who start up companies and lose everything.

 

But so basically you start with a growth mindset. You want to do something with your life, contribute with stuff, and then you find out that it's actually really tough. You know, I've suffered from stress a couple of times as an entrepreneur.

 

So the grit thing, I can totally see that, what you describe. And then I imagine that I'm not quite old enough, then, if you see it linearly, to talk about the grace part. Also, I'm not very rich, but I still also try to think, you know, can you do it?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I was right because, you know, I've interviewed people like Jane Goodall. And, you know, she's 90 years old. She definitely embodies grace.

 

And I think, actually, Jane Goodall is the most remarkable person alive today. Well, at least that I know of.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Yeah, so we haven't had her on the podcast. But can you say, you know, what really inspired you when you talked to her?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Well, I just, the fact that she cares so much, not for herself, but for, you know, the world, animals in general. And she's doing this for now. She's 90 years old.

 

I went to her birthday party a few months ago. And at 90 years old, she's still traveling 300 days a year. And when I say traveling, I don't mean, like, she's going from one Ritz-Carlton to another.

 

She's, you know, she's actually on the road, working with people and foundations and schools. So she's not, she's not just, she's not a tourist. She's working.

 

Yeah. And that's grace. 90 years old, I don't think I'll be traveling 300 days a year, because I'm 70 years old and I'm traveling 90 days a year.

 

JONATHAN LØW

But you're surfing quite a lot.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I'm surfing 90 days. I'm surfing 350 days a year. The other five, 15, it's because the weather is lousy.

 

JONATHAN LØW

But that's also kind of a way of traveling. It's just shorter distance and more water, right?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Yeah, you tend to end up where you began. But yeah.

 

JONATHAN LØW

But that can also be a nice feeling.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Sometimes I miss that. Yes, it can.

 

JONATHAN LØW

What do you think about this grace part? Maybe that's just me being naive. But when I look at, you know, the big challenges out there, I would sometimes think, wow, what if people, like, in earlier ages started with grace?

 

Or is that not, you know, possible that you say, well...

 

GUY KAWASAKI

If they started with grace? Yeah, so they say, yeah, I want to grow stuff up. I mean, it would be a better world if people started with grace.

 

But I really think grace comes with age. Maybe, you know, all the bullshit and all the, you know, ego has to be pounded out of you. And it takes 50, 60, 70 years to pound that shit out of you.

 

So maybe that's just the way it is.

 

JONATHAN LØW

You have to turn like a Buddhist at 10 or something for it to work.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Yeah.

 

JONATHAN LØW

I'm curious. I know that a lot of people who will be seeing and watching this will know Canva. Like, I've used Canva for years.

 

When you started or part of the Canva journey, where were you in this, you know, growth, grit and karma or grace part of your life?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

So I've been with Canva for 10 years. So I would have been 60. And at 60, I was, you know, I was fat, dumb and happy.

 

That's for sure. It wasn't like I was working 60 hours a week anymore. And I was happy as a writer and a speaker, you know, not working for anybody per se.

 

And then they just reached out to me because they saw that I was using Canva. I was not looking for a new job. I was not looking for a new opportunity.

 

They found me. And, you know, thank God they found me.

 

JONATHAN LØW

And this is fascinating. I have never had such a nice title, but I know that both at Apple and at Canva, you have been, you know, chief evangelist. Is that correct?

 

Yes. What does a chief evangelist actually do?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I wonder sometimes myself. Don't get me wrong. A chief evangelist, well, evangelist comes from the word in Greek that means bringing the good news.

 

So I bring the good news. I bring the news of Canva that Canva has democratized design and enables people to become better communicators because everybody can create beautiful designs with Canva. Literally everybody.

 

I mean, you'd have to really, really, really be incompetent to not create something cool with Canva. And then, you know, going earlier into my career, I was the evangelist for Apple. And I was evangelizing a computer that would make people more creative and productive.

 

That was also good news. So what a chief evangelist does is bring the good news. And the difference between evangelism and sales is that evangelism also has the other person's best interests at heart.

 

So I can tell you when I tell you to use Canva or Macintosh, it's not just good for me. It's good for you, too.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Yeah, so it's very much also about the art of, like, storytelling. But something that you actually feel comfortable telling stories about. So it's not just, you know, sales.

 

Not just sales. It's a bad thing.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I can tell stories all day long. I mean, I just I wrote a book called Wise Guy, which is basically every good story I had at the point.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Was it like an autobiography?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

No, because I think the flavor of most autobiographies is that, you know, look at me, I'm perfect. And I'm going to tell you my perfect story, how I did everything right and, you know, how I'm amazing. And that's not how Wise Guy is written.

 

Wise Guy is written to entertain and inspire you with stories from my life. Not that, you know, it's not my autobiography at all.

 

JONATHAN LØW

No, it would be a bold title, though. I've written an anthology called The Guru Book. But when I meet people and they don't know about the book, it could sound like a very bold title for an autobiography.

 

I was actually just about, yeah, and The Guru Book, you know. But it's just a book where I try to learn from other more intelligent people than myself.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I'm revising Wise Guy right now. And I might name the next version Wiser Guy.

 

JONATHAN LØW

That's nice. I was just looking at my notes because I want to get this quote accurate because it's a really nice quote. It's from Pablo Picasso, the artist.

 

And he said, learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist. Do you consider yourself more the artist or the pro? Because you've been successful, but you've been successful at things where you've not just, you know, followed the status quo and you work with companies that are, you know, breaking the rules.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

You know, I can't tell you that I view myself as this great revolutionary and innovator who has broken all the rules and changed everything. I mean, I would apply that to Steve Jobs. I would apply that to Elon Musk, but not Guy Kawasaki.

 

Guy Kawasaki is just a very good marketer. So I don't think I broke the rules. I think that I just, you know, I didn't exactly just go through life obeying rules either.

 

But I never set out to break the rules intentionally. And I think that as a marketer, people don't wake up in the morning saying, oh, I want to buy a product from a company that's breaking the rules. I mean, that doesn't enter into the decision.

 

So you wake up in the morning, say, I want to buy a computer that makes me more creative and productive, or I want to use a graphic design service where I can create my own presentations and my own social media. Now, it happens that Apple and Canva both broke many rules. But people don't use Apple and Canva products because they want to break rules.

 

They use Apple and Canva because they want to be more productive and more creative and more, you know, communicative. It's not because they want to break rules.

 

JONATHAN LØW

It's actually super interesting, because we will later on in the podcast episodes, we'll have one with Simon Sinek. You might be familiar with his start with Y. And, you know, the way he broke into the big world stage was this TED talk where he talks about Apple.

 

But he talks so much about also from a marketing perspective that, you know, it was Apple's story about the Y that sold the products. But as I hear you, it was more the products than the story.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Well, that's an interesting question, because it depends how you look at it. Because if you wanted to get into the minds of Steve and Steve at the very beginning, I kind of doubt that they had such a lofty goal as let's break the rules and let's, you know, revolutionize information processing. I think Woz basically made the computer that he wanted to use, a small, cheap, personal, you know, easy to use.

 

And so he happened to create that. And he was not the only person who wanted that. Now, once you are successful, one of the benefits of success is that you can rewrite history, right?

 

So maybe when you started Apple, you just wanted a computer you could use. And you were crossing your fingers and just hoping and praying that you could sell 20 motherboards to the Homebrew Computing Club. But once you become a trillion dollar company, you can look back and say, oh, yeah, since 1976, we've been trying to democratize computing and make people more creative and productive.

 

And who's going to argue with you because you're successful? But if you truly go back into their minds in 1976, I don't think they had any idea that they were going to do what they were going to do. Now, Simon Sinek is a smarter guy than me.

 

But if you want to attribute the why to a company, I think that's a meaningful exercise. But I think it's a game played only for successful companies. And I'm sure I can tell you that one of the messages I have is that you should always ask what's missing.

 

And so you hear about this. OK, so, you know, they were asking, this company asked why and they were successful and this company asked why and they were successful and this company asked why and they were successful. So you think, oh, the key to success is asking why.

 

But I could also make the case you should consider, look at all the other companies that asked why and failed. Hmm. You know, I bet a lot of companies were asking why and failed.

 

So maybe that's not the key. And I'll give you a more tangible example. So, you know, lots of people say that, oh, I read that Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates, they never had undergraduate college degrees.

 

And look how successful they are. So you don't need a college degree to succeed. Well, then you should ask what's missing.

 

And what's missing is, well, look at how many Fortune 500 CEOs have a college degree. Basically 100%. Yeah.

 

So, you know, you need to ask, OK, so there are other conditions. There's the no college successful. How about the no college unsuccessful?

 

How about the college successful and the college unsuccessful? So you have to look at all four boxes before you say, ah, Zuckerberg, Gates, and, you know, Jobs didn't have college degrees. I'm going to not go to college because that's the path to be successful.

 

Probably not. Not statistically.

 

JONATHAN LØW

It's a really good point. Also, it's interesting that they were some of the people who, you know, stayed in the top of their company through tremendous growth. But a lot of, like, entrepreneurs that I know also realized that, like, going from being one of the founders and then to a CEO, it's not really a promotion.

 

It's more like a career change. And they often suck at being the CEOs. Yeah, yeah.

 

And I mean, that.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Yeah, so, I mean, you know, somebody could say, well, look at the great companies. The great companies were led for 20, 30 years by their founders. There's Jobs, there's Gates, there's Zuckerberg, there's, that's about it.

 

I mean, but, you know, of the Fortune 500 companies, how many Fortune 500 companies are led by their founders? Now, many of them are old companies. So, you know, just mathematically, their founders are dead.

 

But still, you have to look at, you know, how long did Henry Ford run Ford? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

 

But so I just think it's, it's, listen, I love telling stories. Don't get me wrong, OK? But I'll tell you something that stories are very powerful, but that does not mean they're scientifically based.

 

So, you know, I mean, you really, so if you're telling the story, yes, it's a powerful method. But if you're hearing the story, you should always have some skepticism because you have to ask what's missing. And I learned this technique of asking what's missing from Dan Simons of the University of Illinois, or was it University of Chicago?

 

One of those two. And I don't know if you're familiar. Have you ever seen the video where it's called?

 

Oh, it's it's the video where there are two groups of students, some are wearing black T-shirts and some are wearing white T-shirts. And the subjects are told count how many times the black T-shirt kids tossed the beach ball. And so you're counting the tosses.

 

And then in the middle of that, somebody walks in with a gorilla suit and goes, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, and then walks out and only 50 percent of the people notice the gorilla.

 

JONATHAN LØW

He's the guy who did that. Wow, nice. We'll link to it in the podcast for sure.

 

That's a great example. He would be good for your podcast. Yeah, he was on my podcast.

 

Oh, nice. Not to dwell in that, because I know you're probably tired of talking about, you know, all the Apple days and Steve Jobs. I'm not going to go into that.

 

I just I just noticed one thing when I did my little research for this podcast, which I think was interesting because at least my own, like both startup experience and career experience, it's that I had to learn to become better at saying no. And it required a lot of which and the better I got at it, the better I also got at making the right decisions. But you at quite an early age in your life said no to a job from Steve Jobs, right?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Yes, it would have been my third chance to work at Apple.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Was that before? Was that when Jobs was sitting still in the basement with the other nerds? Was Apple actually forming as a company?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

No, I left Apple after I was software evangelist in 87. I left Apple after I was chief evangelist in 97. Then I think around 2000 or so, I saw him at a conference and he asked me to come back to run Apple University.

 

Apple University is the part of Apple that trains all the employees. So I can tell you that if I had stayed at Apple the first time or the second time or taking the third job, I would be very rich. Can you say what made you say no?

 

I would be an asshole too.

 

JONATHAN LØW

I don't know. Sometimes they tend to go hand in hand, but not always, of course, you know. Most of the time.

 

There are nice people out there. They just don't build Tesla.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Yeah, well, Tesla, you know. Elon Musk, if you want to go down that rat hole. So three or four years ago, if you said to me...

 

JONATHAN LØW

Let's just have a little gossip, you know.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Three or four years ago, if you asked me, who's the closest thing to Steve Jobs, I would have said Elon Musk. And arguably, he is more innovative than Steve because Steve just did devices, right? But Elon Musk does cars and space travel and satellite.

 

Internet access and tunnels and chips. And, you know, you name it, right? But if you use the scorecard of growth, grit and grace, he has zero grace.

 

He has negative grace. He has anti-grace. So, I mean, I don't know.

 

If he called me up and said, guy, can I be on your podcast? I honestly don't know what I would say. I might turn him down.

 

JONATHAN LØW

But you could send him a copy when you've written, Wiser Guy. Because that might be, you know, good reading.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Elon Musk doesn't know who I am or give a shit who I am. You know, I don't flatter myself that much.

 

JONATHAN LØW

No, but enough about him. I've never met him or talked to him. But I know a lot of people like Tesla cars, at least here in Denmark.

 

So that was good.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I'm conflicted there because Tesla sells millions of cars and you cannot fool millions of people. If your car is really shitty, it ain't gonna sell millions. So the car must be good.

 

But I gotta tell you, man, I just... I just cannot wrap my mind around buying a car who's, like, from the founder who apparently is, like, you know, supports kind of Nazism and white nationalism and, like, a lot of things I consider evil. I will not...

 

I will walk before I buy a Tesla.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Yeah, and that's the ethical consumer. There are some of those in the world, so hopefully they will become, you know, even more. But I still think it's kind of interesting, not at all, to compare Tesla to Canva because I've never been in a Tesla, but as I said, I've used Canva.

 

I use it every week and I don't even get affiliate commission to say it. But I think when you spoke about marketing that a big part of the marketing and the whole why and so on, for me, it's also just that a really good product is a lot of marketing in itself. And I've learned in my startups, you know, we can be excellent at storytelling, but if the product is mediocre, you'll just onboard the customers with marketing and then you'll just leave them again, right?

 

So marketing doesn't really solve the product. No, you mean...

 

GUY KAWASAKI

You really cannot put lipstick on a pig and expect to get anything but a pig. Okay, so... And, you know, now that you brought it up, if you think about it, I think Melanie Perkins is an example of a very successful CEO who is not at all an asshole.

 

You know, when you think of all the successful CEOs, you think, oh my God, you got to be an asshole to be successful. But I'm telling you, Melanie Perkins disproves that theory.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Just so people know who Melanie is?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Melanie Perkins is the co-founder of Canva, current CEO.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Nice. So she was actually one of the founders who's built now how many people are you at Canva?

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I don't know that answer. A lot. I know we have 175 million monthly active users.

 

I don't know how many employees. I really don't. I think about 5,000, I think.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Don't quote me. It's quite interesting that she has been, you know, there from the beginning and she's still grown into this CEO role, which is for me super impressive because I kind of, maybe it's just me, I kind of see those two as potential opposites. You know, you're really good at starting stuff, but I don't know, many entrepreneurs I know are really not very interested in leadership and they tend to be kind of selfish and want to just, you know, they have this growth mindset and grit to survive it.

 

But as you say, you know, grace comes later on and a big part of being a leader is also having at least, you would hope, some sort of grace or at least some sort of empathy towards employees.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Well, I mean, how many? Let's just look at tech companies. How many tech companies are currently run by their founders, right?

 

So, well, I mean, Apple's not. Steve, because Steve died and Google, they have stepped aside and Bill Gates is now, you know, doing his foundation and other stuff. I don't know.

 

I think part of it is that after you work at a company 10, 20, 30 years, you just, no matter how successful it's been, you just, you need a break. You need to do something different. After I'm podcasting 20 years, I'm going to retire, but I probably will be dead before that happens.

 

JONATHAN LØW

I think I read or saw a really interesting sort of like, not even a quote, but a short passage with you where you talk about, which I found really interesting. Now we talk a lot about, you know, passion driving, probably entrepreneurs. That's why they are crazy enough to stay around.

 

And then there is interest. You know, interest could be you starting to play hockey in your 40s or surfing in your 60s. And you sort of say they are not like the same passion and interest where I think many people would argue, well, for me, it's the same.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Let me explain my perspective there. I think that if you set out to find your passion, that's too high a bar that, you know, you think you're going to find your passion. You're going to instantly fall in love.

 

You're going to dedicate your life to it. And then you're instantly good at it. Right.

 

So I think people should just be open minded and pursue interests. So something might be interesting to you. And, you know, it's the first time you go surfing.

 

It might be interesting or ice hockey or playing the violin or starting a company or making databases or making graphics. It might be interesting. And then you keep at it and, you know, it turns into a passion.

 

But to say that you want to find instant, permanent, all engrossing love, passion, I think that you're setting yourself up for failure. So give yourself a break and, you know, collect a lot of data before you decide what is it for you.

 

JONATHAN LØW

I think it's actually a super important point, especially for like the younger generations. I can only speak about here in Scandinavia. But, you know, everybody are told when it comes to their work life, you know, go and, you know, follow your dream, chase your passion.

 

And I've heard a lot say, well, I have no clue what that is. And then if they start a company, we spoke about before with this thing with starting with your why and Simon Sinek, then the VCs will ask you, that's one of the first questions. So what is your vision behind this company?

 

But most startups that I know, they start more like you described with Steve and Steve at Apple. They try to solve some problems and they are probably geeks and really specialized at what they do. And then suddenly they have to come up with some narrative about, you know, what is their big vision?

 

And then people say, is it your passion? And then they're like, maybe they're just good at what they do, you know.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Or maybe they just want to make a few motherboards and make a living. And then that turns into Apple, right? But you also have to understand that venture capitalists don't exactly have a monopoly on clear thinking and wisdom.

 

Okay, so just, you know. Well, if you have, you know, if you really are bold as an entrepreneur and a VC asks you, what is your vision? What is your passion for this company?

 

You say to them, what is your vision and passion for your venture capital firm? And I guarantee you, they don't know how to answer. What they really want to say is, I don't want to really work too hard.

 

I want to play golf most of the time. I want to get one and a half percent of a billion dollars guaranteed whether I screw this up or do well. And when I do well, I want to get 20%.

 

And I want to, you know, drive a Mercedes S class and play golf and act like God and tell all these young people, you know, this is what you should and shouldn't do. Yeah, that's my vision for my venture capital firm.

 

JONATHAN LØW

And maybe the ultimate goal to have Leonardo DiCaprio, you know, play you in a famous movie or something.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to give a building to Stanford in my name so my children can get in.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Yeah, have your own academy, right? That must be, or named after you at least. Not do so much work on it.

 

Okay, nice guy. So we actually, we don't have a very tight frame. It's kind of like what we've also experienced on Extraordinary here.

 

The idea is to make it sort of like a popcorn podcast, not follow, you know, we have one direct topic, but more make it flow. But I spoke to our producer, Peter, and we spoke together about, we listened to so many other podcasts. They always have this clever beginning with one or two questions where they frame it and then they have an ending question.

 

And we thought, okay, let us at least not break all rules so people get too confused when they listen to it. Let's have like a final, question that we ask one of them. Okay.

 

And then we discuss, you know.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I can honestly tell you that this is the best episode of your podcast ever.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Great.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Because it's the first.

 

JONATHAN LØW

Yes. So maybe we should just.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

It's also the worst episode of your podcast.

 

JONATHAN LØW

So maybe I have to consider with Peter afterwards, should we actually make more or should we finish? Whether that is on the top or the bottom, then at least, you know, we can celebrate we did it. Also, it's nice.

 

We don't have a budget because we have no expenses. So none of the guests are paid. And we are like, why do these inspirational, extraordinary people say yes?

 

And I haven't got the answer to that one yet. Well, I'll give you the answer. Okay.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

I'll tell you how this works. So first of all, this sounds rather immodest, but I mean, like as a potential guest on many podcasts, my first question is always, who else have you had? So now going forth, you can say, well, we had Guy Kawasaki.

 

So hopefully that will be helpful, right? Because when I started my podcast and people said, who else have you had? I said, Jane Goodall.

 

And when you say Jane Goodall, like, you know, who's going to say, ah, you have second tier guests. I'm not going to be on your podcast. I just had Jane Goodall.

 

She's more remarkable than you. So you know what? You're freaking lucky to be next to Jane Goodall.

 

So that's number one. And then number two is you watch or you figure out who's coming out with a new book because when you're coming out with a new book, all bets are off and you are desperate and you just, you say yes to everything. I said yes to everything, every podcast.

 

I've been on, for the Think Remarkable book, I probably have been on 150 podcasts. See, I mean, I don't, you know, I don't even ask them who you had before. I don't ask, like how many subscribers you have.

 

I don't, I just say yes because I figure, you know what? I mean, who knows? Who knows?

 

I mean, I don't know how many subscribers you have. Apparently you have none because it's the first episode and I said yes. And then, but who knows?

 

I mean, maybe the crown prince of Norway is going to listen to this and he's going to say, oh, I want everybody in Norwegian schools to read Think Remarkable because I heard the guy on the podcast and he's so great. So you just never know. you know, a few minutes ago you talk about the power of saying no.

 

Well, I understand that about focus and all that. But me, I just say yes and I let it all sort out.

 

JONATHAN LØW

So nice. We don't have strong connection to the Norwegian royal family, but in Denmark, I've actually met with the king twice. I'm not sure he will appear on the podcast, but I will make, I will make the promise that he has to know.

 

Wait, I know Denmark, but I know it's like almost the same. My wife is Danish. Wow.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say hi to him. Sorry to the listeners.

 

That was something in Danish. It just meant remember to say hi.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

You know, you know, from the United States, you know, like Norway, Denmark, Finland, it's all the same. We don't know. You guys all, you know, you guys all like have a lot of oil and a lot of electric cars and a lot of whales.

 

JONATHAN LØW

There's a lot of people in the world with the most depressions, but that's a long discussion.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

You have the best beer in the world.

 

JONATHAN LØW

That's true. I don't want to mention it because then I have to come to, okay, then I have to come to Carlsberg and get a sponsorship, but we don't have sponsors either on the show. So it's actually nonprofit.

 

It's hard to believe. But yeah, I wanted to finish with this one question and you have one minute to answer it, but maybe you have no answer and that's also totally fine. And it's not really a question.

 

It was more like, let us assume, of course, that this podcast goes from zero listeners to everybody in the world listening. Okay. I'm with you so far.

 

Yes. Everybody is listening right now. You have up to one minute.

 

What do you want to tell them? It doesn't have to be words of wisdom, just what pops to your mind. They're listening.

 

All of them are listening now, guys.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

Okay. What pops into my mind is this, that if you want to be remarkable, don't set out to be remarkable. You set out to make a difference.

 

You make the world a better place. It could be for one school room, one team, one company. It could be one life.

 

It could be your own life. And if you make a difference and you make the world a better place, over time, people will consider that you are remarkable. So, it's not because you decided to be remarkable that you're remarkable.

 

It's because you decided to make the world a better place that you become known as a remarkable person. As being remarkable. And I guarantee you that Jane Goodall and Steve Jobs, they never, ever sat down and said, well, how do I reposition myself as being remarkable?

 

They just went out and did it. They made the world a better place. So, my message to you is make the world a better place and everything else falls from that.

 

It'll all sort out.

 

JONATHAN LØW

That was so beautiful and seemed like such a nice humble guy. But, at the same time, I'm totally going to follow your advice and name drop you to everyone. So, we will also be having extraordinary guests in the future.

 

GUY KAWASAKI

you may come across people who think I'm, you know, an idiot or a kook or a loser. And then they'll say, you had a guy. Clearly, I don't belong on your podcast.

 

Like, I wouldn't tell Elon Musk that I've been on your podcast, for example. Although, he might not know me. So, it doesn't matter.​​

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